KAST: 1M Users on a Stablecoin Neobank

Sy Taylor  0:09  

Simon, welcome to Tokenized, the show focused on stablecoins and the institutional adoption of tokenized real-world assets. My name's Simon Taylor, I'm your host, author of Fintech Brown Food, and head of market down to tempo. Joining me in person is Ran Goldie, aka Goldie, SVP of Payments and Network at Fireblocks. How you doing, Goldie? I'm great. This is exciting. I mean, Monday 2020 is one of my favorite events. Amsterdam, one of my favorite places of all time. You, one of my favorite hosts of your podcast, so love it. I love it, man. You're too good at this, but remind us about this type of show specifically. We're doing a stable coin stories. What is it, and why?

Ran Goldi  0:46  

Yeah, well, we've talked about this a lot of times, you know, between us. The if you go on LinkedIn right now, stable coins are saving the world from world hunger, and there's so many stories about about stable coins. What's really happening? What's not happening? People are waking up to this new reality of stable coins. We wanted to really tell the story behind what's happening, and this time we want to tell the story behind one of the world's most fascinating, interesting neo banks that runs on stable coins.

Sy Taylor  1:14  

Well, speaking of joining us today on the show is Ragulin Party, who is founder and CEO of Cast. How you doing, Rex?

Raagulan Pathy  1:20  

Good, great to be here. I don't have such an interesting intro like he did, but it's good to be in Amsterdam. Good to be in Money 2020

Sy Taylor  1:28  

Yeah, excited to dig into your story as well, because it's quite the story. But two bits before we get into the content: go remind viewers and listeners that views and opinions of our contributors today are their own and might not reflect those companies they represent, and please don't take anything we say as tax, legal fashion, or financial advice. Please always do your own research. And a reminder that this podcast is made possible by our friends at Fireblocks and over at Visa. Huzzah! All right, Briggs, before we get into the cast story and everything you've been building there, you're referred to as the stablecoin guy. Yeah, I like that term. I haven't nailed the use of it as much as I should. This is the guy who is credited with originating the term stablecoin sandwich with the stablecoin guy. This feels right.

Ran Goldi  2:17  

We should be like a running act together. How can we know that, but seriously, tell the story. How did that?

Raagulan Pathy  2:22  

Well, so I was at Circle, and I set up and ran Circle's business for Asia. Did that from 2022 and essentially I just got very, very deep into stable coins, and I actually just gave the term to myself and ran with it. Now, the bad bit of it is that I subsequently founded the company, and what I should have done is gone and got the domain,

Sy Taylor  2:44  

the Stablecoin guy.com

Raagulan Pathy  2:46  

Yeah, and then we, I was meant to have a podcast called The Stable Coin Guy, which they've already built everything around. Unsurprisingly, when you go and found a company, you just have no time to like do all the stuff. I'll tell you, you've got a million other things to do. So,

Ran Goldi  3:00  

I mean, as stable coins will eventually evolve, maybe to tokenize deposits, and no one wants to be the tokenized deposit guy. Yeah, so maybe it's okay, you'll slowly become just the cast, the cast, yeah, maybe I'll become the cast guy. Yeah, so we want to dive into caste, but before that, you already touched this a bit. You were working in Asia for First Circle, but you've also worked all over the world, right? You've done a lot of things for AWS, for Facebook, for Zoom. You've done a lot of super interesting stuff, and somehow you managed to be the Saebokan guy that's creating a neobank, which is quite fascinating. So, tell us a bit about that background. How that led you here?

Raagulan Pathy  3:39  

I mean, look, I was born in Sri Lanka, and I was five years old. I moved to Australia because of civil war at the time, in the mid 80s, and I grew up in Australia. And then, when I was 20, I was just like, okay, this place is too far away, as much as I love Australia. And so I went, and I've lived around the world for the last 20 plus years. I lived in the UK, I've worked in places like Nigeria, spent time in the Middle East, US, etc. I've traveled to like 100 plus countries, so I love travel a lot of that time in emerging markets, lived in a lot of developed places. I was in tech for a long time and spent a lot of time in London in financial institutions and tech places like London Clearinghouse and others, and founded my first company back in 2010 doing cloud services, so pre staple coins or crypto or finance, and that did really well, and then it blew up, and then subsequently I did have a career in AWS at Zoom, setting up and scaling tech companies in Asia. How I got to circle was that I was at Zoom, pre-COVID was amazing ride. I knew I wanted to move into crypto, and I'd been working, you know, a lot of financial services, but at the same time I was like, I can't go and work at, like, an exchange. How can I go and work at an infrastructure company? And for me, Circle was that company, and so I just went very deep in there, reached out. To the leadership, but at Circle, convinced them that I'm the guy for Asia to go and set up in Asia, and subsequently set them up in Asia, got them all the licenses, was a CEO for the entity there, and that's how I got on stable coins. And then I just went very deep, and then I ripped that completely out. Yeah, two and a half years in it, left behind it F load of stock, you know, which probably would have retired me quite comfortably, because I built a thesis, and I'll tell you exactly what happened. Like everyone knows, if you look at stable coins and crypto for like the first eight years, crypto goes up, stable coins go up, crypto goes down, stable coins go down, but at some point around 2324 that separated stable coins would go up or at least stay the same even when crypto went down and I could see that people were selling users for payments and for movement of money and it was no longer just a phenomenon for crypto trading and so then I just look at the problem statement, like, okay, presume the stable coins are going to be big, and it's just going to digitize dollars and euros and other things, presume that's a given. What's the biggest thing that you could do to build on top of that? Now, if you remember, in 23 and 24 the companies are getting funded were mostly stable coin companies, because people like, you know, what the best thing you do is build another stable coin, because USDC and USDT have dominance, Circle and Tether have dominance, it shouldn't be like that, and there was like over 200 new stable coins right today, by the way, those two are still very dominant, and I still

Ran Goldi  6:35  

feel like every corporate wants to create a stable coin, maybe we'll talk about that later, which

Raagulan Pathy  6:38  

we can talk about later, but they basically like my thesis was the biggest macro opportunity that you could do, the way you could build $100 billion plus company was to build a fintech or a bank on top of stablecoin Rails, and it was missing because the exchanges were a bad experience and weren't doing it right, and also frankly, wallets weren't doing it right, and so I wrote a thesis paper around this, and I sent it to a bunch of my friends, aka idiots, who gave me a bit of money, and then they, then I quit, and we started building casts, you know, and we spun up a version very quickly, within a few months, and then I went from there.

Sy Taylor  7:19  

It's funny you say like that concentration and power law that had emerged, but then you know, sort of you watch USDC scale, and then you build your own stable coin. What did you see that you were like, well, actually something different has to be done here?

Raagulan Pathy  7:35  

I think the major thing is that everyone in crypto and stable coins loves building infrastructure, you have to build things that people can use, right, and so for me that was a consumer fintech product, and now we obviously have a business version as well, and we have some other things coming, which I'll talk about in a second, but really I think the opportunity was to go and build something that you put in the hands of end users, and my view is, is that it's going to be different. The current fintechs and others are going to do it, but much like banks were slow to react to fintechs, fintechs are still slow to react to this next wave of neo banks.

Ran Goldi  8:13  

Simon said it, that stablecoin is a new fintech. He said that on LinkedIn, like a while ago, but I totally agree with everything you said, and yet I think you've done something that is remarkable, because again, at Fireblocks, we're very fortunate to see a lot of also startups coming in and saying, "Oh, we're not going to build a neobank, wow, we're not going to get an EMI, we're going to get this, whatever, you know, we're going to buy on SMAL Taiwo, let's not get into that, but you manage when you know you start in July 24 yeah, right, under 18 months you managed to get to more than a million users, 5 billion in alios volume, you just raised a massive, massive round of 80 80 million series, 80 million series a, so How do you do that? How does that happen? I mean, frankly,

Raagulan Pathy  9:00  

we saw the opportunity, we managed to bring together a good team, and we just frankly work 24/7 to, I mean, opportunity windows don't open for long, right? And no one in fintech cares about number 345, or 10. You have to be the biggest, and we're already late, because there was already others that were starting, and so we just put everything into product, go to market, building the quickest, and now we're gonna license the quickest, we're gonna build more on and off ramp rails, and I think it's a pace game,

Ran Goldi  9:34  

but specifically, what challenged you there, Rag? What was it like? This is not like building a company in 2010

Raagulan Pathy  9:40  

yeah,

Ran Goldi  9:40  

because it was different. It was different times back then. Right now, everyone can get funding, theoretically. Again, you manage to get 80. But what really challenged you in this time when building a company that maybe you didn't have back then?

Raagulan Pathy  9:51  

What was hard about building it?

Ran Goldi  9:53  

Yeah, in this time was it the industry, was

Raagulan Pathy  9:56  

it the fucking start off everything? So, if I can say the F word, but every. Thing is, everything is hard, like no one funded us in the beginning. No one believed there was no belief. We were scraping together 10 to 100 grand checks, you know. So, I don't want it to look like, you know, we raised 80 million and it was easy. There was everyone said, okay, great, you've been a CEO of Asia for Circle, but what the hell is that? Got to deal with B to C. The card companies are going to beat you, the exchanges are going to beat you, everyone's going to beat you. This will never become big. So it was just basically like going on the front foot and just trying to fundraise from wherever we can. And then initially Hong Shan and Peak to Sequoia China and Sequoia India, they put in like few million each, but not much. And then we just scrapped together the team. We took below salaries, 10 grand a month, some people taking five grand a month. We did all the basic startup stuff. We didn't pay ourselves. We're massively in the negative. We had a super tight team. We built partnership with the Solana, we try to just build the best product we have. We serviced every customer like we're an OTC shop, like if they could call us. I gave my phone number to every single new customer that joined, so they can WhatsApp me. My WhatsApp is ridiculous. Everyone in the world has got my WhatsApp, so we just did it fucking scrappy, you know. But we were just hungrier, still are, you know, and that's basically it. Now, of course, later on, you get more fun, you can do more things, but there's nothing that breeds the scrappiness.

Sy Taylor  11:29  

I want to come back to that hunger, but talk to me about, like, the initial traction. Who's cast for, and how do you get traction with them, other than giving them your phone number?

Raagulan Pathy  11:39  

Well, I mean, look, fintechs are a trust game, right? So the phone number bit is important because they're not going to trust you to put the money in unless they know that there's someone that they can trust behind it, right? So that bit actually is weirdly important. But the second thing that we did really smart is in the second month we launched in July, in September we announced this card with Solana, right, which, by the way, like others have now, but at that time we just, you know, the thing is, in crypto, everyone tries to do something funky stuff. I went through the front door, I went to Solano and said, I want to get a license to create a Solana card, will you do it? And they said, yeah, sure, like you've got to go through the legal work to do it. So I said, sure, I'll do the legal work to do it, and that really helped us gain a lot of traction, because suddenly Solana was hot at that time, and so people were like, "Oh, yeah, love a Solana car, you know,

Sy Taylor  12:29  

yeah. So it was a

Raagulan Pathy  12:30  

real simple hack, but that really helped us scale very, very fast at the beginning, whilst we're trying to build all the other product and the trust and everything else that makes it fintech, right? Yeah, that really, really helped us at the beginning. Salama has been an amazing partner in that way from day one.

Ran Goldi  12:44  

Maybe we'll talk, kind of, about another thing that you guys did differently, but like everyone, but maybe different, which is USDK. Again, you come from Circle, you know what a stable coin is, but you know, I think you said that building stable coins through it for economics as a trap. Yeah, right. So, so why USDK, right? Like, why? What does it make possible for your users that they could not deal with other stablecoins?

Raagulan Pathy  13:09  

So, I have a thesis that people don't - if they want $1 they want $1 If they want a euro, they want a euro. They don't really care about the 10 different versions there is, right? But they do care about some things, including being able to see their money on chain, so they can say there's $100 here, there's $100 here. This is the main reason we're building USDK. So, normally what happens is you build a stable coin and then you try to figure out ways to pump that stable coin through incentives, right? We're doing it almost the other way around, bottom up, right. So, when you come to Cast, you can deposit USDC, USDT, PY USD, whatever you want, and you just see $1 and what you're going to see very soon is that dollar represented through USDK in your wallet on chain. So, if we say you've got $20,000 you can see $20,000 of usdk, there, right? What we're providing is a bridge, so you can bring in different types of stable coins, different chains, working with you guys, and take it out in any stable coin you want, but in the middle, like in casts, it's usdk, and in the future, we'll open it, so that you can send usd kit to, like, wherever you want, but the main reason is, we want people to be able to see that what we hold is what we're telling you, have is there on chain

Sy Taylor  14:25  

that transparency and trust,

Raagulan Pathy  14:26  

transparency and trust, but at the same time in a user experience where you don't have to have this clumsy, I've got so much USDC and so much USDT, it

Sy Taylor  14:34  

just all looks the same, just looks the same. What's been hard about building simplicity for consumers and abstracting it away. What have been the things that you've bumped into along the way?

Raagulan Pathy  14:45  

So we, from day one, say when you deposited dollar stable coins, showed you $1

Sy Taylor  14:50  

holding a par,

Raagulan Pathy  14:52  

but that means that you've got to have some of our early team are ex OTC traders, so we had to plug in treasury like. You have to manage the treasury of that, the swaps of that, the costs of that, and being able to hold like multiple chains, border wallets, all this very, very complex stuff happens. We have significant treasury operations team, but the user feels nothing, so just like deposit money, take it out, sometimes in stable coins sometimes on different chains, sometimes in cash, and it works seamlessly, but the complexity behind that, if you don't have scale, very different once you have scale, right, but if you don't have scale, it's pretty hard, right, it's pretty hard to keep money ready to go on multiple chains, so if the user goes, I want to withdraw 100 grand suddenly on whatever given chain, it's there, ready to go, you know. You can't just leave 100 grand in USDC on Solana if they want to go and pull it out on Tron. You have to have it available on every single chain, so it's complex. And remember, you've only raised a few million,

Sy Taylor  15:55  

yeah, you don't have a lot of it. Yeah,

Raagulan Pathy  15:56  

so it's complex, but we felt the pain was worth it, specifically because users were going to wallets at other places to deal with all this clumsy gas fees, USDC on one chain, they want to get it out on another chain. I mean, like, they don't care, they just want to move money around, you know. And so we went through the pain on our side to make it simple for the user, and I think that was a big part of our growth,

Sy Taylor  16:22  

all right. Thanks so much, Reichs. Appreciate you, but I also got to say thank you to our sponsors, so we'll just hear from them. We'll be right back. This episode, if it's not obvious, is brought to you by our friends at Visa, a global leader in payments. Visa's tokenized assets platform, VTAP, uses smart contracts and cryptography to help banks bring fiat currencies on chain. VTAP allows financial institutions to issue fiat back tokens, improving financial efficiency and enabling programmable finance. You can check out the links in this episode's description to express your interest in V Tap Tokenized is also sponsored by Fireblocks. Fireblocks is the stablecoin infrastructure of choice for global businesses, from Visa to Worldpay to Bridge to Revolute. With over $100 billion in monthly stablecoin volume, Fireblocks powers stablecoin strategies at scale with infrastructure that enables PSPs, fintechs, remitters, and banks to issue, move, hold, and manage stablecoins. It's all done securely at scale with secure built-in compliance. With Fireblocks, you get complete control to build your own stablecoin orchestration layer, create payment accounts, manage liquidity and access on and off ramps in over 60 currencies makes it easier for you to build and scale and expand your business globally. Learn more@firebox.com

Ran Goldi  17:56  

All right, we're back. So, first of all, fascinating so far, and before I go back to, like, one of the questions we wrote, I really want to ask you, because I've unfortunately been in your chair. People who don't know this, the CEO is the worst job of all times. Yeah, basically, people come to you only with their issues or leave their trouble. You get to solve this. You also need to, you get to be the person that goes to bed every night thinking about, oh, I just need them to have a job tomorrow. How do I do this? All right, here's the next play, here's the strategy, here's what I do. And people don't know this, but when you raise a lot of money like you did, it's not like, oh, I won, it's like, oh no, now I have a lot of money from a lot of new investors, and I need to do even more stuff. Yeah, so $80 million dollars, where is it going to go quickly?

Raagulan Pathy  18:43  

I mean, so where we're really focusing on is obviously building more product and obviously investing in growth, but the really big areas are licenses and acquisitions. We want to become the most licensed stable coin company in the world, so we're going through a process of applying and getting licenses across Europe, 48 or 50 MTLs, EMIs, VAs, Mikas, across Europe and the UK, we're engaged in in the UAE, we're engaged in Asia, and also Latin America, Brazil, Argentina, and other places as well. So we, it's a massive uplift, by the way, Haiti's nothing. My theory is that we're going to raise a billion dollars over the next two to three years, because this is definitely, we're in a race, because people will realize that the next 100 billion dollar company is going to get built here, and so I guess to your point, what happens is that when you raise the 80 million, you suddenly realize that you're not playing for a small company anymore. Yeah, they don't invest 80 million because they, you know, whatever valuation want to taste no different. They want 50x Yeah, I want 100x Yeah, I can tell which means that you're gonna have to raise a shitload more money.

Ran Goldi  19:54  

Yeah, no, we raised $1.1 billion It doesn't get easier, and expectations do go high, but you're you. Your reply to my question is a perfect segue to what we wanted to ask you about again. You said you're going to get a lot of licenses, and you operate across like 170 countries, right, with different obviously setups where you do what you can in any of those countries, but it's not just different rails, it's different expectations from users, it's different behaviors around, around money, right now. If you're building this truly stablecoin platform, what's going to be the mode of that? Because it's, it's, you need to be different in any place. What is the mode that you think that Cast will have as this global company? So we're both at this layer where consumer

Raagulan Pathy  20:39  

and business platform, by the way, I think business will become 50% of our revenues within one to two years. For a macro level, people want to build a company global first. We're in 35 countries, got 300 employees. We need a product like Casts to operate, right? And I think all new businesses starting today are going to need something like us. You can't pay employees, it's too messy right now. So, sorry to answer your question, I think the moat has to be that you own the infrastructure, right? So, a lot of neobanks ourselves included work with partners, and we'll continue to work with partners and their licensing, but ultimately, if you want the best rates, you're going to have to own more and more of that infrastructure, so a lot of that is happening through us building it, but acquiring it as well. So, I think that's why we're in a capital race now, and that capital will be going to those who can acquire the companies, but also have the best team that regulators are comfortable with to actually acquire and transfer those licenses, etc. I think in next six months you're going to see some big announcements around us, around much more capital, a lot more acquisitions, and some pretty heavy hitters on our advisory board as well to show that, like, we're serious about building a $10 billion company within the next couple of years, we're serious about building $100 billion company, and we're taking steps towards that, we're not interested in building a one or two or $3 billion company, and none of our investors are either.

Sy Taylor  22:05  

Fascinating, I think about Revolut with 65 70 million customers, $75 billion valuation, new bank, 100 million customers closing in on that 7080 region. It's not beyond the possibilities to have fintech companies do that, coming back towards stable coins, but where you're going is kind of coming stable coin first and really coming at it aggressively. So that competitive dynamic really fascinates me. But today you sit at sort of a million customers, and you know you're so going out into business. What does that scaling journey of customers look like, how do you get the next million and the 10 million? Like, what's your, what's your plan to get there?

Raagulan Pathy  22:47  

So, at the moment, we, we've gone, because we didn't have capital before. Yeah, so now we have capital, so we can do different things. So, we're going a lot more aggressive on referrals, in terms of actually incentives for you to join our platform, adopt the platform. We become much more aggressive on cash back, cash cash back, not like token cash back, actual cash cash back, and just all the services around it as well, including travel, a lot more of a complete product that looks a lot more like these other partners as well. So it's really just around giving those incentives to get people on and using the platform, and then the second thing is like giving them the reason to stay, because if you can provide the best product, they can move money around the world better and cheaper and faster with you. Then ultimately they're not going to worry about every single fee, they're going to be like, well, this is a platform I trust the most, I get the most efficiency out of, and it's a brand I love. We spend a lot of time on design as well. We're investing very heavily with in partnerships with design companies in the UK and Japan and other places to make our app just the slickest, best working app, you know. Because my thesis ultimately is like, why do leap people leave base to use a fintech?

Ran Goldi  23:57  

Well, again, 1000 reasons.

Raagulan Pathy  23:59  

Yeah, yeah, sure, but the experience is better, so if they're going to leave a fintech, come and use

Sy Taylor  24:04  

us, yeah, it

Raagulan Pathy  24:05  

has to be so much better again. And so we have to invest in making it better, but ultimately it's a game of like deliver a better product and people will come. You can throw a bunch of incentives on there, you can use capital to do that, but and our view is that we have to get to 10 million customers within the next couple of years, and then set up to become 100 million user platform. If you're not playing for that kind of game, you're not going to last. We know from 2015 that there was 100 Revoluts, right? Yeah, or more, but no one remembers most of them. Yeah, Revolution is clearly winning against a new bank, clearly winning, and there's so many that are left behind, even like a Monza and N 26 are a fraction of what Revolut is, even though they started a similar time of finance, similarly, right. So this game is one that you only either become the biggest and you raise the most capital and you deliver the best product to your customers, or you don't, and maybe there's space for two or three to be number two or three, but if you believe. Know that you vanish, no one remembers the rest of them.

Ran Goldi  25:02  

I feel that every, every term in our, like in the tech ecosystem in general, has like a different way for a company during that time to find its edge and its mode. So, Revolut did that. You know, I don't think you can build another Revolut right now the way Revolut built it. Yeah, they were very aggressive with what they did, obviously early on, you probably couldn't even do another Uber the way Uber did it. Yeah, right. Like, I think Cast, I believe in what you're saying, and I believe I know Cass, right? Cast works of Fireblocks, super fanfare for that. And I truly believe that it's.. I know that's one of the most growing customers that we have, right. So I believe everything you're saying, I think that Cass will need to find again its edge, its way right, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's part of the edge is that you guys don't use fiat rails, you didn't have to build on fiat rails in a way, if

Raagulan Pathy  25:54  

yeah, so building on stable coins allows us to go to more countries because essentially we're more closer to a wallet, so that helps, because we have much bigger tai. The second thing is also, is that because we're global from day one, we're trying to build instant payment rails in as many countries as possible, right? So we're aiming there's instant payment rails in 92 countries today, we're trying to cover all 92 you know, and these are the things that provide the edge, right? Like at the moment, even with the fintechs, you only have instant payment in a few countries, right, but we want you to be able to have that everywhere and be able to move money everywhere. I think having both consumer and business is a big edge, but honestly, like even though Revolut is big, it's 96% in Europe, there's still massive space for these global first companies and the global first economy, which is being built today, that fits a crypto stable coin native neobank, much better than Revolut-Wise and others who are still built within that country first, and obviously have more regional options and international options. They're still grounded in that country first.

Sy Taylor  26:55  

Fascinating stuff, Goldie. I think to close this out, you have one question we ask every guest. Well,

Ran Goldi  27:00  

we have to ask you. I know you're just stablecoin, guy. The question we asked is, 20 years from now, are stable coin just like a story or are they a fact? Are you, will be, you be a story or a fact? No,

Raagulan Pathy  27:14  

there's 100% gonna be a fact. But I think I just want to give some context to this, and I explained this to someone else earlier, look, when online shopping came in the late nineties.com, boom came, pets.com came, everyone thought that's it, retail's finished, no one's going to use retail anymore. And guess what, people still go to malls and they still go to retail stores, but obviously online shopping is a major fact, and I don't know what it is, maybe it's 30% maybe it's 50% but it's a significant chunk of retail spending, and I think of stable coins in that same way. We're in that late 90s period where online shopping was 1% and stablecoins are 1% That's not going to fully push out fiat money, but it's going to probably become 30 to 50% in the next 20 years, and so 100% will be a fact, but I think we have to live in this dual world of fiat and stable coins, and I think people who understand that are going to be the most successful. I think a lot of our fintechs and banks are too on the fiat side, and there's a lot of crypto people too on the crypto side, and I think companies like us who get realistic and try to build within the licenses and the framework of fiat and us will be the most successful

Sy Taylor  28:22  

fascinating stuff. Well, if people are interested in Cast and really feel the pain of trying to operate globally, maybe they run a business. Where do they go to learn more about Cast and try the product?

Raagulan Pathy  28:31  

Yeah, absolutely. So you can go to Cast k a s t dot x y z, and that's website. You can also find cast on LinkedIn X and others as well, you can also write to me. Any customer can write to me. It's CEO at Cast dot XYZ, and I respond to anyone who writes there. So, if you want to catch me, you can always catch me there.

Sy Taylor  28:53  

How about you, Goldie?

Raagulan Pathy  28:54  

Amazing.

Sy Taylor  28:55  

First of all, I will write to you at CEO at Cast, although I do have your number, but I'll be at Rang Goldie at Twitter, and on LinkedIn, Rang Goldie as well. You'll find me at S Y Taylor on all of the socials, screaming into the void at Fintech Brain food.com and of course at Simon at Tempo dot xyz, where we also work with Cast. And you'll find a lot more of the show if you go ahead and subscribe, because if you don't, then you won. So hit the subscribe button and tell everyone about this episode. Thank you for the stable coin story. Thank you for watching and listening.